Picture by stockimages @ freedigitalphotos.net In South Africa Blacks and Whites don’t easily talk to each other. Oh, they talk at and about each other all the time, captured in a psychological court of justice - Blacks and Coloureds in the position of plaintiff and Whites in the position of defendant. Therefore I was surprised when Mpho Makhubedu asked this profound question on 21 November 2013 and invited his friends on Facebook to come forward with an honest answer:
"Do White South Africans want Unity with Blacks or do they just want to rule, which not necessarily bring Apartheid back but to be in charge...or maybe they do want Apartheid back?"
Before I share the discussion, I need to say that personally I believe that the people of South Africa are still mourning Apartheid, like children would mourn a dead parent. (Fact: One never forget one's parents and what they have done.)
Objectively, I truly see South Africans moving up and down the stages of grief.
"Do White South Africans want Unity with Blacks or do they just want to rule, which not necessarily bring Apartheid back but to be in charge...or maybe they do want Apartheid back?"
Before I share the discussion, I need to say that personally I believe that the people of South Africa are still mourning Apartheid, like children would mourn a dead parent. (Fact: One never forget one's parents and what they have done.)
Objectively, I truly see South Africans moving up and down the stages of grief.
| The 5 Stages of Grief according to Elisabeth Kübler-Ross in her book “On Death and Dying.” (1969) 1. Denial and Isolation 2. Anger 3. Bargaining 4. Depression 5. Acceptance. | A more comprehensive model explains 7 STAGES OF GRIEF - 1. Shock & Denial: 2. Pain & Guilt: 3. Anger and Bargaining: 4. Depression, Reflection & Loneliness: 5. The Upward Turn: 6. Reconstruction & Working Through: 7. Acceptance & Hope: |
Sit back and evaluate the following conversation with an OPEN MIND and see what I mean by saying that South Africans are still grieving 20 years after Apartheid has been demolished.
This conversation was insightful and enlightening. I do believe TALKING TO EACH OTHER is the right, in fact, the ONLY way forward. I hope this conversation will also open the minds and hearts of others who are still battling to work through their state of grief.
QUESTION: "Do White South Africans want Unity with Blacks or do they just want to rule, which not necessarily bring apartheid back but to be in charge...or maybe they even want Apartheid back?"
Mpho Makhubedu: The reason why I tagged you in this status (my friends), was because the Racial divide in this Country is so Wide that under ordinary situation we won't engage in this type of conversation let alone talk about regular stuff.
Dave Andrews: Neither of the above in my case. I don't care who rules as long as they have the capability and values necessary for the task.
Dean Berzen: White south Africans just want the best for South Africa and want competent people to rule this country. And even if we did rule SA apartheid would never come back and if it did I would vote that party out immediately.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Hi Mpho Makhubedu, personally I would like all of us to be equal, with equal opportunities and benefits. The colour of our skins should be of no significance at all. Our soul, character, ability to mean something positive to our country and fellow-South Africans by using our talents not to enrich ourselves, but to make this country a 'heaven on earth' for all..... in other words to truly love (respect) our fellow-man as we love (respect) ourselves and to stand together against the wrong and evil.... this is my wish, and 99% of my friends and relatives have the same wish. I hope the remaining 1% get some wisdom and insight soon...
Gift Maphakela: Can someone please define "white" for me, colour debate has to come to an end at some point, can we all remember that when you mention "black" you not necessarily referring to the citizens of SA but any black person within the borders-in the case of "whites" we have a range of races that have moved into SA, some took land and some took business, which we all have to benefit from as a nation, sometimes it's an effort of an individual to do both wrong or right - we cannot judge people as a group or race, that's pure twisted uninformed judgement that needs to be unlearned, what we need to be aware of is the fact that we have people who have moved into the country years ago and have grandchildren born in the country making them 100% South Africans.
And again we have to differentiate reality from actuality, reality is that most foreigners own and earn more than South Africans, actuality is that people are just complaining and continuing the apartheid war that has brought us to this embarrassing state we surviving in, it's everyone's responsibility to change their mindset, attitude, perception and conditioning they have being put through.
Mpho Makhubedu: The reason I'm asking this is because I have never met a White person who was pro South Africa...its like all they want to do is either make Money here and Move over sees...every time a White person experiences Crime all I here is those blacks...forgetting that's blacks experience Crime more than any one and Due to the legacy of apartheid most older people are illiterate so even if they wanted to move for greener pastures they don't have the capabilities or financial power...and secondly poor leadership by the ANC is also to blame but we blacks unlike Whites this is it (South Africa) for us we don't have a plan B...we don't own major businesses...its simple really our parents didn't have Education so obviously they can't afford Education for us the circle of poverty continues...we may talk about being equal but at the end of the day apartheid and Colonialism gave White people a 400 year head start...and since Africa lacks leadership our leaders are self serving I don't see anything changing soon and for that reason alone we can't continue blaming apartheid....but as far economic freedom is concerned black people don't own Nothing we can afford to start major businesses therefore even today we rely on White people for employment do I blame white people for that? Hell NO!!! If White people support each other's businesses I don't see it as racism I see it as self preserving...so we also have a concept of racism a bit skewed we may not want to admit it but at the end of the day it all about family and essentially your race is your family and for me there is nothing wrong with taking care of family and making sure it prosper as people.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: @Mpho Makhubedu, I am so sorry that you have never met a whitey who are not pro-SA. I can assure you that I and 99% of my friends and relatives are PRO-SA. We LOVE this beautiful country of us, and we hope with all our hearts that all Nelson Mandela’s dreams and hopes come true. Yes, many, if not all of us, are terribly disheartened, because crime and fraud have become the order of the day. As you say, we don’t see true leadership or positive development, but only deterioration on all levels. Political leaders including mayors and managers of municipalities, riding the sauce train, enriching themselves via ridiculous salaries and bribes, while poor people are getting poorer, waiting in vain for decent houses and services. We are all waiting in vain to see how taxes are being spent on well-needed maintenance and development of existing services, education and the minimization of crime and fraud, instead of on realizing the personal dreams of incompetent leaders.
There is hardly a way left for a white man to make more than enough money to survive on the standard he has set for himself and family - anywhere between poor and rich, mostly middle-class. Since BBE, white entrepreneurs are getting insolvent by the hundreds. They just DON’T get any contracts. Since 1994 money are ‘being made’ excessively by BBE and foreign investors. (Google BBE South Africa.)
It is heartbreaking to see how criminals are wreaking havoc in ALL communities. They seem to have more power to destroy SA than our incompetent politicians. Law Enforcement seems to be powerless or easily swayed with bribes. The courts are doing their job, but apparently in vain, paralysed by human rights and/or insufficient prisons. Why can’t they establish institutions where criminals can be rehabilitated and provided with knowledge and skills they can apply to earn their bread the honest way? Prisons are now 5-Star hotels – no hard labour, no forced training in any field...
Maybe you only HEAR the whites complaining - screaming like mad – about the horrible killings in their communities. People in black communities are too afraid to raise their voices. You know the power of those gangsters. Even the police pretend to be blind and deaf, knowing that their houses will be burnt and their children will be killed if they try to end the doings of the gangs.
Emigration is not so easy. The requirements – set by foreign countries - are way too high for most whites to meet. Do you know what the requirements are? Starting a new life in a foreign country is NOT that easy. Maybe a Plan B for some, but not for the majority.
I agree in a way with the 400 year start... What is currently happening in SA was the order of the day in Europe 400 yrs ago. That is why so many whites came to SA between 1652 and 1820 – to start afresh with a better life, free from oppression and victimization. But along with this new life, their dreams were destroyed in many ways. But even during the 2nd World War with the genocide of the Jews, only 70 yrs ago, whites were ‘400 years behind’, only with sophisticated weapons.
To make a long story short – changing the future starts today. It started in 1994, whether we liked it or not. Every generation will improve, with more education and ability to make ends meet. Sadly, the dishonest, unfair, fraudulent, crooked, dishonourable, criminals – will always be among us. Maybe more prisons, or why not turn prisons in Compulsory Training Centres?
Let’s stay positive I saw a brilliant quote: “Be the difference you want to see-in this world.”
Gift Maphakela: Mind over matter, views, opinions, perceptions whatever u may call it-it's about a feeling not about the reason. Reason can always get changed but the feeling stays the same-I just think there are concerns that are over looked, concerns in our neighborhood, in our societies that we should be partitioning for-we should own our economy from the grass root from the local municipal level, connect our people here at home stand as one, with one objective and one mindset, needs at our homes, Schools, clinics, community help centres, we don't need, eToll in the communities, we need proper education, we don't need big budgets for our ministers and delegates, we need more dedications from our leaders and those in power to make a difference (civil servants).
Gift Maphakela: I fail to understand why Mandela’s dream should prevail: giving people free houses will only make matters worse, we need our land not houses (some of us we would like to do some farming yes at a small scale) grow our own crops and create jobs, and feed our families why boosting our own markets, we don't need makeshift houses that humiliates all the dedication offered by our fallen soldiers may their souls rest in peace, who lost their life's during the struggle,we need subsidies from our government-free "quality" education from "committed, disciplined, dedicated, matured, mentors. Crime needs to be reported, criminals do as they please before our very eyes and yes everyone is scared of them since they get protection from SAP. I'm a society that has destroyed all it's fun and adventures, there's only one thing to be destroyed, the society. That's how most people feel and think....
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Gift, all our ideas will come to nothing. Those who are supposed to hear it, supposed to 'serve' the people by taking the wishes of the people to heart and by utilizing the available money to the benefit of all, are too busy taking care of themselves. As I've already said - all that is going on is quite disheartening. There is also, perhaps, a solution to be found in the kibbutz-system of the Israelis, where an entire community can reap the fruit of their hard work, but so we can come forward with ideas.... in vain... Those who are supposed to have the ideas and the means to turn it into reality, are laughing from meeting to meeting and function to function, eating and drinking money that could have been spent more wisely...
Tienie Fraser: eishh, Mpho , i'm so sorry you never met the white South Africans i know ....I'm telling you , ALL my friends and family won't even blink an eye when you sit with us for a meal , a drink , or join in a fun day on the river ....for instance my one friend Dave Andrews on this link also replied , i know him for years ...if my friends judge you by skin colour , they're not my friend any more , we don't care to rule the country , I couldn'd give a rats arse who rules , as long as they do a proper job and control crime , etc...i agree with Martie Coetser Pozyn , above
Martie Coetser Pozyn: BTW, Gift, I was not aware of Mandela's dream about FREE housing to all. I thought his dream was freedom to own property.... How wonderful would it be to get free houses. The waiting list will be from here to heaven :))) Of course, we humans don't appreciate what we get for free. Free stuff will keep us forever children taking 'charity' for granted. Working hard for what we manage to obtain keeps us proud and responsible adults. Problems start when greed kicks in, or rebellion when we don't get the opportunity to work and earn what we need.... Have a good day!
Dave Andrews:
A few facts:
This country has had a democratically elected government since 1994. That is nearly 20 years. Long enough for the injustices of apartheid to be forgotten. The white population stood at 4.3 million in 1996. It now stands at 4.6 million and is growing (albeit slowly). Of a total population of 52 million, 20 million were born after 1994. In other words, 20 million people, the majority of whom are not white, were born into a democratic society, free of the STRUGGLE.
White people are staying here despite:
Why do they stay? Because we have left the past behind. Because we have no problem having neighbours of another race or culture. Because we have no problem sending our kids to multi-racial schools. Because we enjoy a great standard of living which would be impossible to emulate in any other part of the world. Because we believe that we can make a difference if we STAY, and because this great country is OUR country too.
Harm Fraser: Dankie dave, dis dem mooi gesê. (Thank you, Dave, damn well-said!)
Mpho Makhubedu: Dave I understand what you just said completely....but from what I gather from regular White people and by regular I mean people I have seen on Afrikaner Facebook pages is that all the trouble that white people encounter is because of blacks.. every time a white person gets hurt its the black guy's fault.. its like White people are Crime free just good Citizens which is impossible ..I feel like regular blacks like me are blamed for what the Country has become forgetting we just as powerless to this politicians as you.. not all black people are ANC sheep we all wish there would be a strong opposition party to challenge ANC...blacks are there ones on Metro rail trains, we the ones scrapping for jobs, we the ones living next to that heartless Gangster, we all the ones at the back of a bakkie driven by White Man for R20 a day...I feel like we all victims but Whites just look at things from a White person's prospective White problems.. not a South African prospective.. I mean for me Tienie is the Coolest white person I know lol his open Minded and I'm only 26...Martie is just a breath of fresh air I thought all White ladies where paranoid.. so if I'm reaching out trying to learn about our fellow White South Africans instead of relying on stereotypes why can't they?....and as far BEE no one that I know benefits from it only that elite 1%..blacks are in a position they where in 1948 we don't own Nothing..even big businesses like pick n pay you'll find that in Managing positions its mostly Whites which Company have you ever been in and a White guy reports to a black guy? Would they even comply to that black guy and accept his authority?...the apartheid excuse is getting old physically but as far as Mentally its very strong and will probably suffer from it for 100's of years to come, you may disagree but let me explain...imagine me a black kid growing up my religion Christianity which was introduced by white people, my Mother's name is Mable a White name, I open the bible a White image of jesus, I turn on the TV a heroic White image, Super man, Bat Man all those Super heroes, turn on History Channel White people's accomplishments, and Due to apartheid my grandfather Worked for the White Man, my Mom worked for the White Man and since blacks don't own businesses I'm probably studying to work for the White Man...NOW you tell me what does that do for a black kid's psyche growing up??? Now reverse all the things I just said and picture a white kid growing up and seeing all those things from his prospective how proud he will be and feel entitled to lead and probably see blacks as inferior thus my original Question "Do whites want to unite or rule the Country" ..this is Why I said we can't blame apartheid physically but Mentally we will suffer from it a long time to come both Black and White.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: I fully agree with Mpho on the issue of land reclamation. Mandela's wishes should not be granted as they aren't directed towards the interests of black people, the rightful owners of this land. Madiba, along with his ANC entourage, have always sympathised with the oppressors, they have shamed us a great deal. In 1994,we were promised that by 2015, 30% of the land will be in the hands of Africans, yet today, only less than 6% of the land has been distributed. As for those whites who claim to have our interests at heart, I can only say l refuse to believe. I know you are only in just for the gain and nothing else. I also understand that given the power, you may not bring back apartheid only because you fear it will cause global uproar and tarnish your name. But again do you white folks expect us to fold our hands and pretend apartheid did not exist or did it not impair us psychologically and economically? If you agree then why should you not pay reparations like Germany did to Israel? Do you really believe you can erase history the same way you tried in vain to erase African ancestral history? You should bear in mind that apartheid has left indelible scars in our minds, and those scars have the power to constantly remind us that the past was real. Therefore we Africans should never perceive ourselves as backwards and naive whenever we observe the whites as manipulators and vultures, for they truly are, and we must use the best means we have to our advantage, if it means having to deny them contracts, so it be, without mercy. If it means stealing from them let it be. After all, one of their own, Karl Marx, once said "all property is theft" They should taste their own medicine. They actually aren't aware of the fact that they should have their former military generals forced to stand trial at The Hague for atrocities they committed back in the 80's in Angola and Namibia, the clock is ticking.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Mpho Makhubedu, your reasoning is truly profound and that from a 26yr old! Thank you for the beautiful compliment - breath of fresh air. Really, this is truly one precious compliment. Sadly, and only to blame on human's ignorant perceptives, the white man was born privileged since ancient times. I agree all the way with you, we can talk about this for years and the consequences of being black or white will still be the same. The colours in between tend to be quiet and apparently uninvolved between these two extremes, kind of minding their own business. People who believe that Jesus was white obviously have no clue.... The only whites in Biblical times in the specific regions mentioned in the Bible were the Romans - the races in that part of the world were olive and black. Whites were from the 'far north' - Europe.... not even on the same continent. Like the British imperialists, the Romans had invaded Israel..... Mesopotamia, Egypt, Canaan and and.... The apostle Paul, a white Roman, then introduced Christianity to the western world. One of these days I will write an entire article about Sumerian mythology and the origin of Abraham who were born in Ur. You will find it very interesting. We should overcome our ancient perspective of colours.... people with skins the colour of clouds and eyes the colour of heaven are NOT godlike beings from Heaven.... easy for me in my white skin to say, but we should rather focus on our abilities to make the best of ourselves, our neighbours (fellow-man) and the piece of earth we happen to occupy. False pride, audacity, a sense of superiority are typical characteristics of the white man, while blacks take the cake when it comes to dignity and humbleness. Let's simply be the best we can be, serving each other with compassion and respect in everything we do. BTW, my daughter in law, son in law and my son have black 'bosses', and the domestic servant at my work is white.... and America has a black president. The colour of human's skin will never again be of any significance. I like the rainbow as a metaphor.... People are humans like colours are rainbows.... Enjoy your weekend.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Malusi, the clock is always clicking. Whatever we sow today, we will reap, and over and over, because human deeds are like hardy, edible weeds. Once sown, it will sow itself season after season. We whites have had our share of humiliation, victimization, intimidation, poverty and feeling insignificant under the thumbs of other races. Under British rule my parents and ancestors have suffered tremendous injustice. Before they came to S.A., in Europe, they suffered unspeakable horrors. South Africa originally belonged to the Khoi-San, today extinct, slaughtered by blacks and eventually also by whites. The Khoi-San never actually had the wish to OWN property. They were a nomadic race, like we all were in ancient times.... travelling from one region to another, to wherever food was.... like the animals... when will we ever learn to not try to correct wrongs with wrongs? To not live with an attitude of revenge. When will we ever understand that nothing on this planet belongs to US? We are all merely unique living beings having the PRIVILEGE to live on this beautiful planet called Earth for about 70 years if we are lucky. The audacity of the human race boggles my humble female mind.... one twist of the north pole, one meteor from space, and we're all gone, and even Death, waiting for all of us around any corner, should keep US all in a state of utter appreciation because we have the privilege to breathe and see and experience this awesome universe.... in Lesotho no one owns land - it's all in Trust and managed by authorities - king and chiefs... but also this system is a failure with just as many negative consequences than capitalism. We ought to keep our attitude, thoughts and ideas far above those who have already proven themselves as the breeding ground of injustice and misery.
Dave Andrews: Guys - I must say, I am really enjoying this discussion. I agree that we need to bunk the stereotyping and try to gain a greater understanding across the cultural divide. Mpho, why shouldn't you own a business? I do and the reason I do is through dint of hard work and perseverance - it was not handed to me and it's not because I am white. I often receive sms's from my neighbourhood watch - 2BM just held up an old lady in her drive - last seen...driving a white corolla. Why is it always BM's?? Why never WM's? I guess it is due to the fact that BM's make up 80% of the male population of the country, and that they can't find jobs. Why can't they find jobs? Firstly, because the government is failing in education. Secondly, they are failing to create jobs. Why? Because their labour laws and cosy relationship with the Unions discourage people like me from employing more people - thereby restricting economic growth. Remember that the greatest scope for growth in this country is in the small to medium business sector. They need stop spending money on fancy cars and homesteads and channel those resources into the education sector. They need to give small business the wings they need to grow. Why is Jesus depicted as a white man? Because white people popularised Christianity. If you think about it, he must have been more of an Arab (just like Mohammed) than Caucasian. He wasn’t black because God didn't put him in Africa!!!(LOL). Who cares what colour he is (or was), it makes no difference. White super heroes? Marvel comics started in 1940 as Marvel Mystery Comics. The heroes were created in the dark years of racial segregation in the U.S and are a hangover from that era. The best they could do was a GREEN one . Regardless, what about all the ultra cool stars of today – Sam L Jackson, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Wesley Snipes, Forest Whittacker, WILL SMITH……and MUSIC and dance – R&B, soul, rap, jazz, hip hop, Greats like Louis Armstrong, Dollar Brand, Nat King Cole, BB King, Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston…., oh, and isn’t Barak Obama black?? Build a bridge Mpho, black is cool, make it happen.
Dave Andrews: Very generalist remark - "whites are vultures" - what of the black elite - shall we call them Hyenas? Manipulators? and what of government manipulation of the labour market and tender processes? Stealing back the land? What about the value which has been added through the hard work of generations of owners. I would like to buy a small farm to work and retire on - should I wait until it has been stole from the current owners and then buy it from the black man it has been given to? What about food security? What about basic moral values. What about constitutional rights? As for war crimes - what about the truth and reconciliation commission.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: I wholeheartedly agree with Dave. The simple reason why most crime seems to be committed by blacks is because of the 1-8 ratio of population. 1 white asshole: 8 black assholes, 1 wise white, 8 wise blacks. Our mutual problem is criminals, not white and black skins. Crime was and is and will always be, but it went haywire in SA. The cruelty and audaciousness of criminals borders barbarism. In all communities. The authorities should launch serious and intense law enforcement. Remember, going to Durban and especially the beach front was perilous for many years due to the activities of drug dealers and prostitution. Thanks to effective law enforcement we can once again enjoy those beaches, promenade and sea-facing restaurants. (Although someone has been murdered there the other day!)
Of course, blacks can become successful businessmen. Why do we only see people from Kenya, Nigeria Somalia, China, Korea, etc. making a living in the small-medium business sector, inciting xenophobia? Why fight them with fire and not with their own weapon: business skills. There are so many courses to follow and financial support for the aspiring businessman – Go for it, Mpho! But yes, the obstacles to overcome, the basic cons and pros, just like farming, are only to be met by the dedicated, ambitious, hard-working, most persistent and resilient person. Just look at the Jews, Portuguese, Indians – people who are apparently born with business skills – they eat, sleep, talk, walk business – too busy to bother with politics and racial conflict.
Too many labour laws, forced down our throats, increase unemployment and consequently crime. Therefore more businessmen explore and use technology. Why not allow each and every employee to come to an agreement with an employer? Following the demand and supply principle. Those leaders of the unions, inciting strikes and riots, obviously have no clue of economy and the running of business. But yes, the gap between high and low remunerations is in many cases absolutely ridiculous.
We (whites) are not masters of business and politics. We have had highly incompetent managers during the previous regime and also politicians who had committed fraud, but they were rogues of the first waters. Their doings were called ‘Scandals’. They were summarily fired and the LAW took care of them. After 20 years in the NEW SA we should no longer tolerate any ineffective management and services. Whoever’s doing a job – any job - should do it well and competently.
Anyway, discussing all of this is actually a waste of time. But it is good to know each other’s perspectives. Just so you know, Mpho, we should not form any perceptions of a race based on the activities of individual members and minority groups. We are all human spirits, trying to survive in an earthy body and a specific environment.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: On black governors being hyenas, you got it right, these so-called leaders are just puppets of white supremacists who are actually the custodians of British wealth, you can find proof in how they fail to sell our own ancestral given minerals at a price determined by African market standards, they worship the West to such an extent that they are prepared to use their automatons(police) to kill anyone who threatens their false throne. On TRC, l would like to inform that the same commission was established and incepted without the will of blacks. Who in their right mind would want to feed from the same bowl as the killer of his own sons and daughters? All these were Mandela and Tutu's inferiority complexes, glorified by magnitudes of miseducated blacks whose psyches have been indoctrinated for years with senseless "education" in which the curriculum either upheld foreign values or respiratory systems of mice and cockroaches, yet you tell me we should bury our past.
My dear Martie, in your soon coming article may you please include the maneuver in which white people destroyed the kingdom of ancient Pharaohs who were actually black people, how whites, together with the Arabs used conquest to destroy black civilisation in North Africa and replaced the Black nation with mixed breeds(Mulattoes) who were a result of rape of Black women and castration of Black males. Will you unashamedly tell the whole world how your very own ancestors knocked the flat nose and thick lips off the Great Sphinx to fade the traces of the Black Pharaoh Khafru? Would you tell the whole world of how often do your own folks reiterate the Rubicon Speech every 16th December in front of the Supreme Court of Appeal Bloemfontein. Would you tell them about that old letter from Roman Catholic Church discovered in DRC by a mindless black puppet priest who bought a 2nd hand bible from his master missionary Father? Would you tell the contents of that letter? As for the Khoi-San being the first occupiers of our country. I can only say we and them share a common ancestor, and we never fought them, if you think we did, then tell us the name of the tribe and king who was responsible for their genocide as you claim. Lastly, the one who said whites were privileged by virtue of birth, please stop lying to yourself, privileged people do not go around torturing and robbing people of their belongings and their land. They don't go around carrying books of lies that tell tales of talking snakes, men who walk on water and pregnant virgins, such are the deeds of charlatans and pure sinners. I have no faith in white people and l honestly need nothing from them.
Dave Andrews: therefore no point talking to them - case closed.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: I may personally not need anything from them yes, but l'll never look away and pretend l don't know they owe my people. It is my people who still live in shacks, it is my people who are identified with foreign names, it is my people who go to bed hungry, it is my people who are security guards at Bangladeshi-run shops, it is my people who succumb to the horrors of nyaope on daily basis, they do this in an attempt to evade their persecution, their pains are my pains, they are my burdens. I don't like to play the blame game but even you white folks know why is this happening. Your ancestors' calculations were accurate, they knew every move will lead to this mess. We know exactly that xenophobia is something you glorify behind closed doors, we know you care about rhinos more than you care about black people, because rhinos are your investment cash-cows. You rather feed a lobster to your Chihuahua than feed 10 malnourished black kids from Khayelitsha. Yes you are privileged and can still play God even now, you can still shoot a black farm labourer and claim you mistook him for a baboon. You can still kill a black man and feed him to lions and then be given a house-arrest. You can still have university students feed on your urine infested porridge, and the law will do nothing. Why, because it is the law that was drafted by weak Blacks who wanted so dearly to be white, the 'Michael Jacksons' of Africa. After all, black on black violence is something you all wished to see from the time you invented apartheid. It suits you best because this time none of you will be subjected to a prosecution. And lastly you blacks out there who think mingling with whites makes you a better black, you should know that they are laughing at us, to them, we are worse than our forefathers who are said to have sold their cattle for mirrors. The price at which we sell our commodities should be determined by us, and only us. Enjoy your weekend Black fellows.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Malusi, I cannot deny any of the horrible things that were done by whites to all races (including their own), and knowing the history of Africa, I can also not deny any of the horrible things that were done by blacks. Fact is, we are now HERE. 2013. The future lies ahead of us. What do you suggest, what do we (all) do from here onwards? How should we create a future that will not look like the past? I hope to see wisdom in your suggestions and no injustice and racial hate -
Dave Andrews: Me too..
Mpho Makhubedu: I agree With Malusi on a Couple of factors history depicts us blacks as a couple of Mindless savages who Contributed Nothing more than sell each other to slavery....Malusi our problem is that we don't support each other we've been Conditioned so long to think that other races are better than us to a point that we expect them to some how save us for our selves...I often ask my Mom who is 47 years old why is she such a devout Christian.. I mean maybe us blacks should go back to What ever we where Worshiping before the Christian Missionaries landed on out shores I mean we where prosperous and independent minded...Dave, Martie you Right there isn't really nothing stopping me from opening my business but the Slave Mentality my people Acquired through the Centuries, the Thinking that everything that is White is better and there fore Quality...I mean I can open a Shop next to a White person in say Soweto and I Guarantee you he or she will out sell me 10 to 1...but I can't expect White people to liberate my people from that kind of Mentality, the books are there to read especial the for youth, I believe White people should Continue supporting each other I don't consider it as Racism.. I believe blacks should also learn to value them selves and support each other ...all we need to do as blacks is dump Christianity after all it didn't originate in Africa therefore it wasn't really for us, Dump the European Names which I see it happening thank God, Dump the White Man are rich and superior Mentality in fact this Mentality will work at White people's Advantage "if No one thinks you rich and superior there for no one is going to try and rob you" fact of the matter is we both have problems and we expect the next person to help us...the are 4 Million Whites right let the Rand Circulate among your selves therefore enriching you...same as us for blacks let it Circulate among our selves...we will trade with Each other when ever necessary.. its not Racism its self preserving...our problem as blacks is that we expecting Whites to tell our history. Our stories, we follow the Eurocentric standards of beauty.. that's why blacks are straightening their hair bleaching their skin and wearing all this fake weaves instead of embracing our curly hair, full lips, wide Noses, big butts and curvaceous hips.. black history didn't start when Jan van Riebeeck landed on our shores...we had Mapungubwe trading in Gold, we build fortresses in Zimbabwe, the pyramids of South Sudan and GIZA the hieroglyphics show on the Walls dark skin people and dark skin people+Africa equals Blacks.. but Colonization didn't show our history because if you oppress people you take away all their achievements give them an inferiority complex so they won't revolt and by doing that believe that they need you...what I have realized from this discussion is non of the other group really comprehends another one's problems and struggles so will forever point fingers so its better to uplift you and yours and in doing so we will both up lift South Africa and the world honestly.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Hi Mpho, believe me, I am known for my ability to comprehend the problems and struggles of others. I can honestly understand your anger and urge to stop all injustice for once and for all. You have all the reasons in the world to hate whites with a passion. But I would like to believe that we have all grown during the past 40 000+ years in our human booties and we are now adults, realizing the horrendous stupidities we have committed during our ‘childhood’.
In the name of Christianity many horrors were and still are committed. In the name of all religions more people were killed than in any other war. We've been conditioned.... all of us, since the beginning. So true!
No race is better than another one. If I were born in Russia, I could have been a famous gymnast. If I were born in America, I could have been a famous actress. I could have been a famous pianists if I were born in Venice. Races do have unique qualities due to environmental norms and standards. Look at the Chinese and Japanese – designers and producers of almost everything we 'believe' we need, developers of technology per excellence.... Why are we not like them? Should we hate them because they are ahead of us, forcing us to close our factories because their creations are so much cheaper than ours?
Maybe we should only realize that life is a challenge. Independence, as individuals as well as a nation, and self-sufficiency should be our goal. We should all fight injustice and evil. Value ourselves, not only for who we were / are and how we have managed to survive and grow in spite of indoctrination and conviction, but for who we can become by being the difference we want to see in the world.
Mpho, I would not have been able to start any one of my own businesses if I had taken my competition in consideration. Starting a business is like jumping in a sea that hosts a million sharks. Your product and business skills are your only hope for survival, as it is also your fellow-businessman’s hope for survival. Arm yourself with the essential knowledge and skills and you will survive. What about the Portuguese and Italians, still running their shops in spite of Pick a Pay, Checkers, Game, and the Indians, still running their business with success? BTW, since 1991, I am no longer a business woman, but continue to sell my skills and knowledge as an independent contractor. Though this is as good as working for a boss. Clients – the users of whatever we deliver - are actually our bosses. Pleasing them, is what we do. The person we call boss is merely doing a specific duty, handling responsibilities that are not ours.
Sadly, people are to blame for the failure of Christianity – or let me rephrase – not of Christianity but of being true Christians. If we study Jesus’ policy, his practising of ‘Love God with all your heart and your fellow-man as yourself’, we have to admit that there was (and still is) substance in his teachings. Just studying the first four books in the New Testimony with an open mind, we’ll see how people have turned and twisted it since the beginning 0001AC, to their own comprehension of God and their own perception of Good and Evil. May God bless us all with the same wisdom he had instilled in Jesus. Remember, he was in fact a rebel against the religious practices of his own people.
“Blacks bleaching their skin and wearing all this fake weaves...” – reminds me of us whites lying for hours under the sun or electrical sunbeds, yearning to be darker, perming our hair – the afro-look was highly in fashion at a time... Perhaps Envy makes us do this – Instead of valuing our true self?
Mpho, lets strive for Unity, let’s try to understand each other better, let us all be wise and learn from the past and prevent repetitions of the false and evil. Let's fight injustice together and truly support each other. In the meantime, have a good day.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: To me, the only way to free ourselves from these shackles of mental poverty will be to change our psychological perceptions. This will entail rewriting history through the changing of the curriculum. Teaching children more valuable education that will include awakening them from their deep mental sleep at a very young age. The school curriculum should strongly emphasize the content that tells of both the physical and psychological cruelty of the white man towards the black man, but this should not be taught with a view to fuelling racism and hate, but to conscientise the black child to view the white child not as a friend, but a counterpart against whom he/she must compete. Secondly, we, the black parents should learn to not allow our kids to worship whites, we can do this by making sure we buy them black dolls, which will teach them how to feel attached and to nurse blacks at an early age.
Gift Maphakela: @malusi that's proper, this hate has to stop-I trust that one that emotionally reacts is half of the times clouded and judgements a gets stuck in life and misses opportunities that can help aid the condition we have been put through.i have friends who have decided to be shallow over most things that are happening, t difficult to have a conversation with such because of the blame they always putting on other people i.e. parents or white people. its so such reverse tendencies have coat us a precious time that we could have invested in rebuilding out confidence as people.
Gift Maphakela: It's only a matter of time before we see the real enemy, ourselves - black, white Indian, Asian, etc - we all all are human, we should understand the definition of greed before we start blaming anyone or anything.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: @malusi - I agree with you. And above all, our children should be taught to respect all fellow-humans regardless of the colour of their skins. No envy, no competition, no bullying - each and everyone have to compete with themselves, developing their talents in order to become the best human being they can possibly be. Have a good day!
Dave Andrews: Malusi - I fully agree that the black child should view the white child as a competitor on an equal footing - seeing only a fellow human. But I also believe that there is no reason at all that they should also not be friends. It's called healthy competition, where the players have a mutual respect for one another and will base success or failure on merit, effort and capability, whilst maintaining a relationship conducive to a common understanding.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Gift Maphakela, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Blaming others - even ourselves -keeps us paralysed. Really, we all have someone to blame for everything that went wrong in our lives - parents, partners, husbands/wives, teachers, employers, maybe a reckless driver or even God or our ancestors, who had perhaps given us poor genes and a disability or two, or made us grow up in miserable circumstances - Life is like a dance, people do step on the toes of others and sometimes not on purpose. So, blaming is a waste of precious energy. Life is a mountain to be climbed to the very top - only death should stop us to climb... move forward... upwards.... Have a good day!
Martie Coetser Pozyn You are welcome to read my article about Racism -http://martiecoetser.hubpages.com/.../Racism-Another...
Racism – Another Perspective on Racism - Racism is a form of emotional fortification, dug like moats by people who live in fear of losing what they believe are theirs...
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: After all, we don't necessarily need to elect a new government in order to free ourselves, we only need to educate everyone who's willing to listen, and to dictatorially indoctrinate our own children and family members at gatherings. Remember, changing the world and the future begins from within. And for us Africans (black & white) to prosper and elevate to the level of China and the West, all we need to is to understand that we have been deprived of many advantages. e,g technological, scientific and (shamefully) intellectual. But yet we are the sole providers of natural resources upon which these global superpowers depend, therefore all we need to do is to set up magnificent regulations for international trade of these precious minerals. Imagine if we block the trade of brent crude and platinum. This will cause an enormous collapse of the Dow Jones, Nikkei, Mercedes-Benz and all foreign investment cartels and automobile manufacturers. It will eventually force them to comply with our domestically determined prices for commodities. But on the flipside, it will always come at a price, i.e sanctions, which will result in economic recession, hunger and even military intervention, but yet again, every revolution demands sacrifices. Believe me, they have been lying to us, saying they have platinum reserves that can sustain them for the next 25 years at their warehouses in London. Blue lies! If we don't excel in producing, why can't we excel in selling what is ours to our own collective benefit. 1000 apologies for having expressed my views in an aggressive manner, l hope l did not offend anyone. Have a good day.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: @Malusi - I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. You have given me hope for the future of SA. Thank you! Oh yes, at fist you scared me, displaying so much anger, but I could see your point and agreed all the way with everything you've said. Have a nice day!
Dave Andrews: Hi Malusi. Words like "indoctrinate" and "Dictatorial" are normally associated with oppressive regimes and I would not recommend using either in the family context. I do agree that the development of children should begin at home and every opportunity should be taken to provide them with the building blocks required for open mindedness and fair play. I would also not use China as an example to aspire to. China has an unfair advantage right now due to the fact that conditions of employment are largely unregulated. American companies like Dell and Apple are taking advantage of this and are guilty of abusive labour practises which would not be tolerated in their home country (or South Africa, or any Western country). China will have to toe the line eventually and that will level the playing field. In the interim, with our relatively high wages and highly regulated labour market - we cannot hope to compete. I don't think we are deprived of any technological, scientific or intellect advantages. More likely, we are not investing sufficiently in our academic institutions and our failing education system. Educate people and they will do the rest. Regulating trade will never work. We are not 'sole providers' of any natural resource. We do not have oil reserves, how can we block the trade of Brent Crude? A collapse of the world financial markets is not going to help anyone - least of all us. The world market has and always will determine the value of commodities - as with any willing buyer , willing seller transaction - prices find their level according to the principles of supply and demand. We should look to ourselves to find our problems and solve them from within.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Dave, thanks for emphasizing reality. Ref China - the best producers of musical instruments in Europe, Conn and Selmer, established a division in China. Due to savings on labour - as labour is so much cheaper in China as in Europe - they are able to sell their product, called Conn-Selmer - for half the price to the rest of the world. Excellent student models! But is this really abuse? Considering the population of China an their unemployment, is this not a case of one hand helps the other? Thinking about platinum and gold and even diamonds, can South Africa really afford to rise its selling price on the International market? We may have a lot of minerals, but we are not the only country in the world able to meet International demand. Look what had happened to our textile, clothes and shoes factories. Most went insolvent due to cheaper International suppliers. The government is trying to 'save' us by increasing taxes on imports, forcing minimum wages down our throats, believing that this is the right way to go, and in the meantime we are no longer a country able to supply all the demands of our citizens, but part of a global world - country serving other countries.... We should rather fear the monopoly of oil producing countries and develop sufficient energy and fuel supply instead of supplying platinum and gold.... Anyway, this is but only my humble thoughts. After all, I am only an observer and not a professional economist.... Thanks again for reminding us about serious issues to keep in mind...
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: But still the WTO regulates commodity pricing, although in disguise, must buyers determine a price, or must they negotiate it? As for oil, maybe l didn't make myself clear,my plea is actually for the rest of the continent, as we all fall victims to our common enemy. As for those words you consider undesirable, l can only say they are applicable to a certain category of people, my own black people who have been fed with the distorted image of false freedom, which resulted in the breeding of a lazy generation whose sole interest is to make babies, queue for social grants, demand free housing and toilets, watch soapies, boast about drinking dated alcohol, allow underage kids to have sex freely, and to vote illiterates into power simply because they received a free T-shirt. Don't be confused by myself sounding a bit two-faced. These are the people upon whom ideas must be forced into their minds by indoctrination. Without application of force my people hardly manage to get off their feet. They rather sit and gossip than water their own gardens, and still l blame your ancestors, they taught blacks to work only under foremanship, and convinced them they'll never achieve anything by themselves, my people are the ones whose kids are being taught at school to disobey parental orders, all in the name of human rights. But Dave believe me, collapsing international market is the simplest method that yields a win-win situation, it has been used by most successful economies to topple unfavourable regimes. If exercised on a larger or continental scale, Africa shall sing Hosannas.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Amen, Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele..... And even applicable to whites.... in the past they were too sure of getting a job, pension, medical benefits, etc. Now the lazy are doomed.... but also the white hardworking and devoted student, no longer able to slide into prosperity, is compelled to surpass themselves.... Africa, and in particular South Africa, shall indeed sing Hosannas....
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: I truly enjoyed this conversation and yes l learned a lot. I almost felt like writing a whole volume on this topic. Goodnight fellows.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: I truly enjoyed this conversation and yes l learned a lot. I almost felt like writing a whole volume on this topic. Good evening fellows. Keep up the teaching and touching lives
Mpho Makhubedu: This discussion showed me that as much as it is about Race its even More about Class....I am really agreeing with the Solution all over you came up with, But I honestly don't think its the solution.. no disrespect to Anyone but I don't think is thinking out side the Box it basically conforming to the System fighting for a better spot in the system with at the end of the day the green eyed Monster that is Capitalism still exists and as long it still exists there will never be Equality.. we need a whole new System...everything has changed in the last 100 years why can't the System Change...with innovation we own need crude oil anything associated with things such as trade, economy, currency, its time the human race elevated from that kind of thinking...if I was a leader trust and believe South Africa would be a Rogue Nation with all the things I just Mentioned non existent...imagine if there was no money to hinder progress how far innovation wise the human race would be...take pharmaceutical companies for instant.. how can you find a cure when Cancer alone is Worth billions of Dollars a year.. the is no money in the cure and as we know money is fuel of capitalism, socialism or any other ism we can think off.. Animals are dying of for what to fuel the System, I mean people we a paying for water have you ever seat down and think of how funny and stupid is?if you paying for water today what will you be paying tomorrow.. as governments get stronger and stronger so will Capitalism.. we need to kill the monster today so for me any solution that is within the System is a short term Solution that will soon have to be eradicated as well.
Mpho Makhubedu: We need to free our minds and believe in the unbelievable.. the fight for the future starts here.. after all today's reality doesn't have to be tomorrow's for reality is is what you make of it,
Martie Coetser Pozyn: @Mpho Makhubedu, I don't think capitalism is the true devil, but human Greed and Envy. You'll have to invent a brand-new system to meet the needs of people in this day and age as all previous systems have proved themselves to be failures in relation with human natural desires. Now exactly what do you have in mind?
xxxxxxx
This conversation was insightful and enlightening. I do believe TALKING TO EACH OTHER is the right, in fact, the ONLY way forward. I hope this conversation will also open the minds and hearts of others who are still battling to work through their state of grief.
QUESTION: "Do White South Africans want Unity with Blacks or do they just want to rule, which not necessarily bring apartheid back but to be in charge...or maybe they even want Apartheid back?"
Mpho Makhubedu: The reason why I tagged you in this status (my friends), was because the Racial divide in this Country is so Wide that under ordinary situation we won't engage in this type of conversation let alone talk about regular stuff.
Dave Andrews: Neither of the above in my case. I don't care who rules as long as they have the capability and values necessary for the task.
Dean Berzen: White south Africans just want the best for South Africa and want competent people to rule this country. And even if we did rule SA apartheid would never come back and if it did I would vote that party out immediately.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Hi Mpho Makhubedu, personally I would like all of us to be equal, with equal opportunities and benefits. The colour of our skins should be of no significance at all. Our soul, character, ability to mean something positive to our country and fellow-South Africans by using our talents not to enrich ourselves, but to make this country a 'heaven on earth' for all..... in other words to truly love (respect) our fellow-man as we love (respect) ourselves and to stand together against the wrong and evil.... this is my wish, and 99% of my friends and relatives have the same wish. I hope the remaining 1% get some wisdom and insight soon...
Gift Maphakela: Can someone please define "white" for me, colour debate has to come to an end at some point, can we all remember that when you mention "black" you not necessarily referring to the citizens of SA but any black person within the borders-in the case of "whites" we have a range of races that have moved into SA, some took land and some took business, which we all have to benefit from as a nation, sometimes it's an effort of an individual to do both wrong or right - we cannot judge people as a group or race, that's pure twisted uninformed judgement that needs to be unlearned, what we need to be aware of is the fact that we have people who have moved into the country years ago and have grandchildren born in the country making them 100% South Africans.
And again we have to differentiate reality from actuality, reality is that most foreigners own and earn more than South Africans, actuality is that people are just complaining and continuing the apartheid war that has brought us to this embarrassing state we surviving in, it's everyone's responsibility to change their mindset, attitude, perception and conditioning they have being put through.
Mpho Makhubedu: The reason I'm asking this is because I have never met a White person who was pro South Africa...its like all they want to do is either make Money here and Move over sees...every time a White person experiences Crime all I here is those blacks...forgetting that's blacks experience Crime more than any one and Due to the legacy of apartheid most older people are illiterate so even if they wanted to move for greener pastures they don't have the capabilities or financial power...and secondly poor leadership by the ANC is also to blame but we blacks unlike Whites this is it (South Africa) for us we don't have a plan B...we don't own major businesses...its simple really our parents didn't have Education so obviously they can't afford Education for us the circle of poverty continues...we may talk about being equal but at the end of the day apartheid and Colonialism gave White people a 400 year head start...and since Africa lacks leadership our leaders are self serving I don't see anything changing soon and for that reason alone we can't continue blaming apartheid....but as far economic freedom is concerned black people don't own Nothing we can afford to start major businesses therefore even today we rely on White people for employment do I blame white people for that? Hell NO!!! If White people support each other's businesses I don't see it as racism I see it as self preserving...so we also have a concept of racism a bit skewed we may not want to admit it but at the end of the day it all about family and essentially your race is your family and for me there is nothing wrong with taking care of family and making sure it prosper as people.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: @Mpho Makhubedu, I am so sorry that you have never met a whitey who are not pro-SA. I can assure you that I and 99% of my friends and relatives are PRO-SA. We LOVE this beautiful country of us, and we hope with all our hearts that all Nelson Mandela’s dreams and hopes come true. Yes, many, if not all of us, are terribly disheartened, because crime and fraud have become the order of the day. As you say, we don’t see true leadership or positive development, but only deterioration on all levels. Political leaders including mayors and managers of municipalities, riding the sauce train, enriching themselves via ridiculous salaries and bribes, while poor people are getting poorer, waiting in vain for decent houses and services. We are all waiting in vain to see how taxes are being spent on well-needed maintenance and development of existing services, education and the minimization of crime and fraud, instead of on realizing the personal dreams of incompetent leaders.
There is hardly a way left for a white man to make more than enough money to survive on the standard he has set for himself and family - anywhere between poor and rich, mostly middle-class. Since BBE, white entrepreneurs are getting insolvent by the hundreds. They just DON’T get any contracts. Since 1994 money are ‘being made’ excessively by BBE and foreign investors. (Google BBE South Africa.)
It is heartbreaking to see how criminals are wreaking havoc in ALL communities. They seem to have more power to destroy SA than our incompetent politicians. Law Enforcement seems to be powerless or easily swayed with bribes. The courts are doing their job, but apparently in vain, paralysed by human rights and/or insufficient prisons. Why can’t they establish institutions where criminals can be rehabilitated and provided with knowledge and skills they can apply to earn their bread the honest way? Prisons are now 5-Star hotels – no hard labour, no forced training in any field...
Maybe you only HEAR the whites complaining - screaming like mad – about the horrible killings in their communities. People in black communities are too afraid to raise their voices. You know the power of those gangsters. Even the police pretend to be blind and deaf, knowing that their houses will be burnt and their children will be killed if they try to end the doings of the gangs.
Emigration is not so easy. The requirements – set by foreign countries - are way too high for most whites to meet. Do you know what the requirements are? Starting a new life in a foreign country is NOT that easy. Maybe a Plan B for some, but not for the majority.
I agree in a way with the 400 year start... What is currently happening in SA was the order of the day in Europe 400 yrs ago. That is why so many whites came to SA between 1652 and 1820 – to start afresh with a better life, free from oppression and victimization. But along with this new life, their dreams were destroyed in many ways. But even during the 2nd World War with the genocide of the Jews, only 70 yrs ago, whites were ‘400 years behind’, only with sophisticated weapons.
To make a long story short – changing the future starts today. It started in 1994, whether we liked it or not. Every generation will improve, with more education and ability to make ends meet. Sadly, the dishonest, unfair, fraudulent, crooked, dishonourable, criminals – will always be among us. Maybe more prisons, or why not turn prisons in Compulsory Training Centres?
Let’s stay positive I saw a brilliant quote: “Be the difference you want to see-in this world.”
Gift Maphakela: Mind over matter, views, opinions, perceptions whatever u may call it-it's about a feeling not about the reason. Reason can always get changed but the feeling stays the same-I just think there are concerns that are over looked, concerns in our neighborhood, in our societies that we should be partitioning for-we should own our economy from the grass root from the local municipal level, connect our people here at home stand as one, with one objective and one mindset, needs at our homes, Schools, clinics, community help centres, we don't need, eToll in the communities, we need proper education, we don't need big budgets for our ministers and delegates, we need more dedications from our leaders and those in power to make a difference (civil servants).
Gift Maphakela: I fail to understand why Mandela’s dream should prevail: giving people free houses will only make matters worse, we need our land not houses (some of us we would like to do some farming yes at a small scale) grow our own crops and create jobs, and feed our families why boosting our own markets, we don't need makeshift houses that humiliates all the dedication offered by our fallen soldiers may their souls rest in peace, who lost their life's during the struggle,we need subsidies from our government-free "quality" education from "committed, disciplined, dedicated, matured, mentors. Crime needs to be reported, criminals do as they please before our very eyes and yes everyone is scared of them since they get protection from SAP. I'm a society that has destroyed all it's fun and adventures, there's only one thing to be destroyed, the society. That's how most people feel and think....
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Gift, all our ideas will come to nothing. Those who are supposed to hear it, supposed to 'serve' the people by taking the wishes of the people to heart and by utilizing the available money to the benefit of all, are too busy taking care of themselves. As I've already said - all that is going on is quite disheartening. There is also, perhaps, a solution to be found in the kibbutz-system of the Israelis, where an entire community can reap the fruit of their hard work, but so we can come forward with ideas.... in vain... Those who are supposed to have the ideas and the means to turn it into reality, are laughing from meeting to meeting and function to function, eating and drinking money that could have been spent more wisely...
Tienie Fraser: eishh, Mpho , i'm so sorry you never met the white South Africans i know ....I'm telling you , ALL my friends and family won't even blink an eye when you sit with us for a meal , a drink , or join in a fun day on the river ....for instance my one friend Dave Andrews on this link also replied , i know him for years ...if my friends judge you by skin colour , they're not my friend any more , we don't care to rule the country , I couldn'd give a rats arse who rules , as long as they do a proper job and control crime , etc...i agree with Martie Coetser Pozyn , above
Martie Coetser Pozyn: BTW, Gift, I was not aware of Mandela's dream about FREE housing to all. I thought his dream was freedom to own property.... How wonderful would it be to get free houses. The waiting list will be from here to heaven :))) Of course, we humans don't appreciate what we get for free. Free stuff will keep us forever children taking 'charity' for granted. Working hard for what we manage to obtain keeps us proud and responsible adults. Problems start when greed kicks in, or rebellion when we don't get the opportunity to work and earn what we need.... Have a good day!
Dave Andrews:
A few facts:
This country has had a democratically elected government since 1994. That is nearly 20 years. Long enough for the injustices of apartheid to be forgotten. The white population stood at 4.3 million in 1996. It now stands at 4.6 million and is growing (albeit slowly). Of a total population of 52 million, 20 million were born after 1994. In other words, 20 million people, the majority of whom are not white, were born into a democratic society, free of the STRUGGLE.
White people are staying here despite:
- The fact that they are subjected to reverse racism, through ‘affirmative action’.
- The fact that their land is under threat (no matter how many generations have past) via “land reform”
- The fact that their businesses suffer prejudicial legislation in the form of BEE or BBEEE or whatever other acronym you would prefer to use.
- The fact that labour law is so heavily skewed in favour of organised labour and small businesses are legally required to be a part of “bargaining councils” where decisions are made by people with no understanding of the local market conditions.
- The fact that their vote really doesn’t count for much in the face of the herd mentality of the population and the power of the tripartite alliance.
- The fact that inefficiencies, corruption, incompetence, nepotism and cronyism is eroding the benefit of the tax they pay.
- The fact that they must indirectly subsidise an inadequate police force by employing private security companies to keep them safe in the face of rampant crime.
Why do they stay? Because we have left the past behind. Because we have no problem having neighbours of another race or culture. Because we have no problem sending our kids to multi-racial schools. Because we enjoy a great standard of living which would be impossible to emulate in any other part of the world. Because we believe that we can make a difference if we STAY, and because this great country is OUR country too.
Harm Fraser: Dankie dave, dis dem mooi gesê. (Thank you, Dave, damn well-said!)
Mpho Makhubedu: Dave I understand what you just said completely....but from what I gather from regular White people and by regular I mean people I have seen on Afrikaner Facebook pages is that all the trouble that white people encounter is because of blacks.. every time a white person gets hurt its the black guy's fault.. its like White people are Crime free just good Citizens which is impossible ..I feel like regular blacks like me are blamed for what the Country has become forgetting we just as powerless to this politicians as you.. not all black people are ANC sheep we all wish there would be a strong opposition party to challenge ANC...blacks are there ones on Metro rail trains, we the ones scrapping for jobs, we the ones living next to that heartless Gangster, we all the ones at the back of a bakkie driven by White Man for R20 a day...I feel like we all victims but Whites just look at things from a White person's prospective White problems.. not a South African prospective.. I mean for me Tienie is the Coolest white person I know lol his open Minded and I'm only 26...Martie is just a breath of fresh air I thought all White ladies where paranoid.. so if I'm reaching out trying to learn about our fellow White South Africans instead of relying on stereotypes why can't they?....and as far BEE no one that I know benefits from it only that elite 1%..blacks are in a position they where in 1948 we don't own Nothing..even big businesses like pick n pay you'll find that in Managing positions its mostly Whites which Company have you ever been in and a White guy reports to a black guy? Would they even comply to that black guy and accept his authority?...the apartheid excuse is getting old physically but as far as Mentally its very strong and will probably suffer from it for 100's of years to come, you may disagree but let me explain...imagine me a black kid growing up my religion Christianity which was introduced by white people, my Mother's name is Mable a White name, I open the bible a White image of jesus, I turn on the TV a heroic White image, Super man, Bat Man all those Super heroes, turn on History Channel White people's accomplishments, and Due to apartheid my grandfather Worked for the White Man, my Mom worked for the White Man and since blacks don't own businesses I'm probably studying to work for the White Man...NOW you tell me what does that do for a black kid's psyche growing up??? Now reverse all the things I just said and picture a white kid growing up and seeing all those things from his prospective how proud he will be and feel entitled to lead and probably see blacks as inferior thus my original Question "Do whites want to unite or rule the Country" ..this is Why I said we can't blame apartheid physically but Mentally we will suffer from it a long time to come both Black and White.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: I fully agree with Mpho on the issue of land reclamation. Mandela's wishes should not be granted as they aren't directed towards the interests of black people, the rightful owners of this land. Madiba, along with his ANC entourage, have always sympathised with the oppressors, they have shamed us a great deal. In 1994,we were promised that by 2015, 30% of the land will be in the hands of Africans, yet today, only less than 6% of the land has been distributed. As for those whites who claim to have our interests at heart, I can only say l refuse to believe. I know you are only in just for the gain and nothing else. I also understand that given the power, you may not bring back apartheid only because you fear it will cause global uproar and tarnish your name. But again do you white folks expect us to fold our hands and pretend apartheid did not exist or did it not impair us psychologically and economically? If you agree then why should you not pay reparations like Germany did to Israel? Do you really believe you can erase history the same way you tried in vain to erase African ancestral history? You should bear in mind that apartheid has left indelible scars in our minds, and those scars have the power to constantly remind us that the past was real. Therefore we Africans should never perceive ourselves as backwards and naive whenever we observe the whites as manipulators and vultures, for they truly are, and we must use the best means we have to our advantage, if it means having to deny them contracts, so it be, without mercy. If it means stealing from them let it be. After all, one of their own, Karl Marx, once said "all property is theft" They should taste their own medicine. They actually aren't aware of the fact that they should have their former military generals forced to stand trial at The Hague for atrocities they committed back in the 80's in Angola and Namibia, the clock is ticking.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Mpho Makhubedu, your reasoning is truly profound and that from a 26yr old! Thank you for the beautiful compliment - breath of fresh air. Really, this is truly one precious compliment. Sadly, and only to blame on human's ignorant perceptives, the white man was born privileged since ancient times. I agree all the way with you, we can talk about this for years and the consequences of being black or white will still be the same. The colours in between tend to be quiet and apparently uninvolved between these two extremes, kind of minding their own business. People who believe that Jesus was white obviously have no clue.... The only whites in Biblical times in the specific regions mentioned in the Bible were the Romans - the races in that part of the world were olive and black. Whites were from the 'far north' - Europe.... not even on the same continent. Like the British imperialists, the Romans had invaded Israel..... Mesopotamia, Egypt, Canaan and and.... The apostle Paul, a white Roman, then introduced Christianity to the western world. One of these days I will write an entire article about Sumerian mythology and the origin of Abraham who were born in Ur. You will find it very interesting. We should overcome our ancient perspective of colours.... people with skins the colour of clouds and eyes the colour of heaven are NOT godlike beings from Heaven.... easy for me in my white skin to say, but we should rather focus on our abilities to make the best of ourselves, our neighbours (fellow-man) and the piece of earth we happen to occupy. False pride, audacity, a sense of superiority are typical characteristics of the white man, while blacks take the cake when it comes to dignity and humbleness. Let's simply be the best we can be, serving each other with compassion and respect in everything we do. BTW, my daughter in law, son in law and my son have black 'bosses', and the domestic servant at my work is white.... and America has a black president. The colour of human's skin will never again be of any significance. I like the rainbow as a metaphor.... People are humans like colours are rainbows.... Enjoy your weekend.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Malusi, the clock is always clicking. Whatever we sow today, we will reap, and over and over, because human deeds are like hardy, edible weeds. Once sown, it will sow itself season after season. We whites have had our share of humiliation, victimization, intimidation, poverty and feeling insignificant under the thumbs of other races. Under British rule my parents and ancestors have suffered tremendous injustice. Before they came to S.A., in Europe, they suffered unspeakable horrors. South Africa originally belonged to the Khoi-San, today extinct, slaughtered by blacks and eventually also by whites. The Khoi-San never actually had the wish to OWN property. They were a nomadic race, like we all were in ancient times.... travelling from one region to another, to wherever food was.... like the animals... when will we ever learn to not try to correct wrongs with wrongs? To not live with an attitude of revenge. When will we ever understand that nothing on this planet belongs to US? We are all merely unique living beings having the PRIVILEGE to live on this beautiful planet called Earth for about 70 years if we are lucky. The audacity of the human race boggles my humble female mind.... one twist of the north pole, one meteor from space, and we're all gone, and even Death, waiting for all of us around any corner, should keep US all in a state of utter appreciation because we have the privilege to breathe and see and experience this awesome universe.... in Lesotho no one owns land - it's all in Trust and managed by authorities - king and chiefs... but also this system is a failure with just as many negative consequences than capitalism. We ought to keep our attitude, thoughts and ideas far above those who have already proven themselves as the breeding ground of injustice and misery.
Dave Andrews: Guys - I must say, I am really enjoying this discussion. I agree that we need to bunk the stereotyping and try to gain a greater understanding across the cultural divide. Mpho, why shouldn't you own a business? I do and the reason I do is through dint of hard work and perseverance - it was not handed to me and it's not because I am white. I often receive sms's from my neighbourhood watch - 2BM just held up an old lady in her drive - last seen...driving a white corolla. Why is it always BM's?? Why never WM's? I guess it is due to the fact that BM's make up 80% of the male population of the country, and that they can't find jobs. Why can't they find jobs? Firstly, because the government is failing in education. Secondly, they are failing to create jobs. Why? Because their labour laws and cosy relationship with the Unions discourage people like me from employing more people - thereby restricting economic growth. Remember that the greatest scope for growth in this country is in the small to medium business sector. They need stop spending money on fancy cars and homesteads and channel those resources into the education sector. They need to give small business the wings they need to grow. Why is Jesus depicted as a white man? Because white people popularised Christianity. If you think about it, he must have been more of an Arab (just like Mohammed) than Caucasian. He wasn’t black because God didn't put him in Africa!!!(LOL). Who cares what colour he is (or was), it makes no difference. White super heroes? Marvel comics started in 1940 as Marvel Mystery Comics. The heroes were created in the dark years of racial segregation in the U.S and are a hangover from that era. The best they could do was a GREEN one . Regardless, what about all the ultra cool stars of today – Sam L Jackson, Denzel Washington, Morgan Freeman, Wesley Snipes, Forest Whittacker, WILL SMITH……and MUSIC and dance – R&B, soul, rap, jazz, hip hop, Greats like Louis Armstrong, Dollar Brand, Nat King Cole, BB King, Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston…., oh, and isn’t Barak Obama black?? Build a bridge Mpho, black is cool, make it happen.
Dave Andrews: Very generalist remark - "whites are vultures" - what of the black elite - shall we call them Hyenas? Manipulators? and what of government manipulation of the labour market and tender processes? Stealing back the land? What about the value which has been added through the hard work of generations of owners. I would like to buy a small farm to work and retire on - should I wait until it has been stole from the current owners and then buy it from the black man it has been given to? What about food security? What about basic moral values. What about constitutional rights? As for war crimes - what about the truth and reconciliation commission.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: I wholeheartedly agree with Dave. The simple reason why most crime seems to be committed by blacks is because of the 1-8 ratio of population. 1 white asshole: 8 black assholes, 1 wise white, 8 wise blacks. Our mutual problem is criminals, not white and black skins. Crime was and is and will always be, but it went haywire in SA. The cruelty and audaciousness of criminals borders barbarism. In all communities. The authorities should launch serious and intense law enforcement. Remember, going to Durban and especially the beach front was perilous for many years due to the activities of drug dealers and prostitution. Thanks to effective law enforcement we can once again enjoy those beaches, promenade and sea-facing restaurants. (Although someone has been murdered there the other day!)
Of course, blacks can become successful businessmen. Why do we only see people from Kenya, Nigeria Somalia, China, Korea, etc. making a living in the small-medium business sector, inciting xenophobia? Why fight them with fire and not with their own weapon: business skills. There are so many courses to follow and financial support for the aspiring businessman – Go for it, Mpho! But yes, the obstacles to overcome, the basic cons and pros, just like farming, are only to be met by the dedicated, ambitious, hard-working, most persistent and resilient person. Just look at the Jews, Portuguese, Indians – people who are apparently born with business skills – they eat, sleep, talk, walk business – too busy to bother with politics and racial conflict.
Too many labour laws, forced down our throats, increase unemployment and consequently crime. Therefore more businessmen explore and use technology. Why not allow each and every employee to come to an agreement with an employer? Following the demand and supply principle. Those leaders of the unions, inciting strikes and riots, obviously have no clue of economy and the running of business. But yes, the gap between high and low remunerations is in many cases absolutely ridiculous.
We (whites) are not masters of business and politics. We have had highly incompetent managers during the previous regime and also politicians who had committed fraud, but they were rogues of the first waters. Their doings were called ‘Scandals’. They were summarily fired and the LAW took care of them. After 20 years in the NEW SA we should no longer tolerate any ineffective management and services. Whoever’s doing a job – any job - should do it well and competently.
Anyway, discussing all of this is actually a waste of time. But it is good to know each other’s perspectives. Just so you know, Mpho, we should not form any perceptions of a race based on the activities of individual members and minority groups. We are all human spirits, trying to survive in an earthy body and a specific environment.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: On black governors being hyenas, you got it right, these so-called leaders are just puppets of white supremacists who are actually the custodians of British wealth, you can find proof in how they fail to sell our own ancestral given minerals at a price determined by African market standards, they worship the West to such an extent that they are prepared to use their automatons(police) to kill anyone who threatens their false throne. On TRC, l would like to inform that the same commission was established and incepted without the will of blacks. Who in their right mind would want to feed from the same bowl as the killer of his own sons and daughters? All these were Mandela and Tutu's inferiority complexes, glorified by magnitudes of miseducated blacks whose psyches have been indoctrinated for years with senseless "education" in which the curriculum either upheld foreign values or respiratory systems of mice and cockroaches, yet you tell me we should bury our past.
My dear Martie, in your soon coming article may you please include the maneuver in which white people destroyed the kingdom of ancient Pharaohs who were actually black people, how whites, together with the Arabs used conquest to destroy black civilisation in North Africa and replaced the Black nation with mixed breeds(Mulattoes) who were a result of rape of Black women and castration of Black males. Will you unashamedly tell the whole world how your very own ancestors knocked the flat nose and thick lips off the Great Sphinx to fade the traces of the Black Pharaoh Khafru? Would you tell the whole world of how often do your own folks reiterate the Rubicon Speech every 16th December in front of the Supreme Court of Appeal Bloemfontein. Would you tell them about that old letter from Roman Catholic Church discovered in DRC by a mindless black puppet priest who bought a 2nd hand bible from his master missionary Father? Would you tell the contents of that letter? As for the Khoi-San being the first occupiers of our country. I can only say we and them share a common ancestor, and we never fought them, if you think we did, then tell us the name of the tribe and king who was responsible for their genocide as you claim. Lastly, the one who said whites were privileged by virtue of birth, please stop lying to yourself, privileged people do not go around torturing and robbing people of their belongings and their land. They don't go around carrying books of lies that tell tales of talking snakes, men who walk on water and pregnant virgins, such are the deeds of charlatans and pure sinners. I have no faith in white people and l honestly need nothing from them.
Dave Andrews: therefore no point talking to them - case closed.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: I may personally not need anything from them yes, but l'll never look away and pretend l don't know they owe my people. It is my people who still live in shacks, it is my people who are identified with foreign names, it is my people who go to bed hungry, it is my people who are security guards at Bangladeshi-run shops, it is my people who succumb to the horrors of nyaope on daily basis, they do this in an attempt to evade their persecution, their pains are my pains, they are my burdens. I don't like to play the blame game but even you white folks know why is this happening. Your ancestors' calculations were accurate, they knew every move will lead to this mess. We know exactly that xenophobia is something you glorify behind closed doors, we know you care about rhinos more than you care about black people, because rhinos are your investment cash-cows. You rather feed a lobster to your Chihuahua than feed 10 malnourished black kids from Khayelitsha. Yes you are privileged and can still play God even now, you can still shoot a black farm labourer and claim you mistook him for a baboon. You can still kill a black man and feed him to lions and then be given a house-arrest. You can still have university students feed on your urine infested porridge, and the law will do nothing. Why, because it is the law that was drafted by weak Blacks who wanted so dearly to be white, the 'Michael Jacksons' of Africa. After all, black on black violence is something you all wished to see from the time you invented apartheid. It suits you best because this time none of you will be subjected to a prosecution. And lastly you blacks out there who think mingling with whites makes you a better black, you should know that they are laughing at us, to them, we are worse than our forefathers who are said to have sold their cattle for mirrors. The price at which we sell our commodities should be determined by us, and only us. Enjoy your weekend Black fellows.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Malusi, I cannot deny any of the horrible things that were done by whites to all races (including their own), and knowing the history of Africa, I can also not deny any of the horrible things that were done by blacks. Fact is, we are now HERE. 2013. The future lies ahead of us. What do you suggest, what do we (all) do from here onwards? How should we create a future that will not look like the past? I hope to see wisdom in your suggestions and no injustice and racial hate -
Dave Andrews: Me too..
Mpho Makhubedu: I agree With Malusi on a Couple of factors history depicts us blacks as a couple of Mindless savages who Contributed Nothing more than sell each other to slavery....Malusi our problem is that we don't support each other we've been Conditioned so long to think that other races are better than us to a point that we expect them to some how save us for our selves...I often ask my Mom who is 47 years old why is she such a devout Christian.. I mean maybe us blacks should go back to What ever we where Worshiping before the Christian Missionaries landed on out shores I mean we where prosperous and independent minded...Dave, Martie you Right there isn't really nothing stopping me from opening my business but the Slave Mentality my people Acquired through the Centuries, the Thinking that everything that is White is better and there fore Quality...I mean I can open a Shop next to a White person in say Soweto and I Guarantee you he or she will out sell me 10 to 1...but I can't expect White people to liberate my people from that kind of Mentality, the books are there to read especial the for youth, I believe White people should Continue supporting each other I don't consider it as Racism.. I believe blacks should also learn to value them selves and support each other ...all we need to do as blacks is dump Christianity after all it didn't originate in Africa therefore it wasn't really for us, Dump the European Names which I see it happening thank God, Dump the White Man are rich and superior Mentality in fact this Mentality will work at White people's Advantage "if No one thinks you rich and superior there for no one is going to try and rob you" fact of the matter is we both have problems and we expect the next person to help us...the are 4 Million Whites right let the Rand Circulate among your selves therefore enriching you...same as us for blacks let it Circulate among our selves...we will trade with Each other when ever necessary.. its not Racism its self preserving...our problem as blacks is that we expecting Whites to tell our history. Our stories, we follow the Eurocentric standards of beauty.. that's why blacks are straightening their hair bleaching their skin and wearing all this fake weaves instead of embracing our curly hair, full lips, wide Noses, big butts and curvaceous hips.. black history didn't start when Jan van Riebeeck landed on our shores...we had Mapungubwe trading in Gold, we build fortresses in Zimbabwe, the pyramids of South Sudan and GIZA the hieroglyphics show on the Walls dark skin people and dark skin people+Africa equals Blacks.. but Colonization didn't show our history because if you oppress people you take away all their achievements give them an inferiority complex so they won't revolt and by doing that believe that they need you...what I have realized from this discussion is non of the other group really comprehends another one's problems and struggles so will forever point fingers so its better to uplift you and yours and in doing so we will both up lift South Africa and the world honestly.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Hi Mpho, believe me, I am known for my ability to comprehend the problems and struggles of others. I can honestly understand your anger and urge to stop all injustice for once and for all. You have all the reasons in the world to hate whites with a passion. But I would like to believe that we have all grown during the past 40 000+ years in our human booties and we are now adults, realizing the horrendous stupidities we have committed during our ‘childhood’.
In the name of Christianity many horrors were and still are committed. In the name of all religions more people were killed than in any other war. We've been conditioned.... all of us, since the beginning. So true!
No race is better than another one. If I were born in Russia, I could have been a famous gymnast. If I were born in America, I could have been a famous actress. I could have been a famous pianists if I were born in Venice. Races do have unique qualities due to environmental norms and standards. Look at the Chinese and Japanese – designers and producers of almost everything we 'believe' we need, developers of technology per excellence.... Why are we not like them? Should we hate them because they are ahead of us, forcing us to close our factories because their creations are so much cheaper than ours?
Maybe we should only realize that life is a challenge. Independence, as individuals as well as a nation, and self-sufficiency should be our goal. We should all fight injustice and evil. Value ourselves, not only for who we were / are and how we have managed to survive and grow in spite of indoctrination and conviction, but for who we can become by being the difference we want to see in the world.
Mpho, I would not have been able to start any one of my own businesses if I had taken my competition in consideration. Starting a business is like jumping in a sea that hosts a million sharks. Your product and business skills are your only hope for survival, as it is also your fellow-businessman’s hope for survival. Arm yourself with the essential knowledge and skills and you will survive. What about the Portuguese and Italians, still running their shops in spite of Pick a Pay, Checkers, Game, and the Indians, still running their business with success? BTW, since 1991, I am no longer a business woman, but continue to sell my skills and knowledge as an independent contractor. Though this is as good as working for a boss. Clients – the users of whatever we deliver - are actually our bosses. Pleasing them, is what we do. The person we call boss is merely doing a specific duty, handling responsibilities that are not ours.
Sadly, people are to blame for the failure of Christianity – or let me rephrase – not of Christianity but of being true Christians. If we study Jesus’ policy, his practising of ‘Love God with all your heart and your fellow-man as yourself’, we have to admit that there was (and still is) substance in his teachings. Just studying the first four books in the New Testimony with an open mind, we’ll see how people have turned and twisted it since the beginning 0001AC, to their own comprehension of God and their own perception of Good and Evil. May God bless us all with the same wisdom he had instilled in Jesus. Remember, he was in fact a rebel against the religious practices of his own people.
“Blacks bleaching their skin and wearing all this fake weaves...” – reminds me of us whites lying for hours under the sun or electrical sunbeds, yearning to be darker, perming our hair – the afro-look was highly in fashion at a time... Perhaps Envy makes us do this – Instead of valuing our true self?
Mpho, lets strive for Unity, let’s try to understand each other better, let us all be wise and learn from the past and prevent repetitions of the false and evil. Let's fight injustice together and truly support each other. In the meantime, have a good day.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: To me, the only way to free ourselves from these shackles of mental poverty will be to change our psychological perceptions. This will entail rewriting history through the changing of the curriculum. Teaching children more valuable education that will include awakening them from their deep mental sleep at a very young age. The school curriculum should strongly emphasize the content that tells of both the physical and psychological cruelty of the white man towards the black man, but this should not be taught with a view to fuelling racism and hate, but to conscientise the black child to view the white child not as a friend, but a counterpart against whom he/she must compete. Secondly, we, the black parents should learn to not allow our kids to worship whites, we can do this by making sure we buy them black dolls, which will teach them how to feel attached and to nurse blacks at an early age.
Gift Maphakela: @malusi that's proper, this hate has to stop-I trust that one that emotionally reacts is half of the times clouded and judgements a gets stuck in life and misses opportunities that can help aid the condition we have been put through.i have friends who have decided to be shallow over most things that are happening, t difficult to have a conversation with such because of the blame they always putting on other people i.e. parents or white people. its so such reverse tendencies have coat us a precious time that we could have invested in rebuilding out confidence as people.
Gift Maphakela: It's only a matter of time before we see the real enemy, ourselves - black, white Indian, Asian, etc - we all all are human, we should understand the definition of greed before we start blaming anyone or anything.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: @malusi - I agree with you. And above all, our children should be taught to respect all fellow-humans regardless of the colour of their skins. No envy, no competition, no bullying - each and everyone have to compete with themselves, developing their talents in order to become the best human being they can possibly be. Have a good day!
Dave Andrews: Malusi - I fully agree that the black child should view the white child as a competitor on an equal footing - seeing only a fellow human. But I also believe that there is no reason at all that they should also not be friends. It's called healthy competition, where the players have a mutual respect for one another and will base success or failure on merit, effort and capability, whilst maintaining a relationship conducive to a common understanding.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Gift Maphakela, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Blaming others - even ourselves -keeps us paralysed. Really, we all have someone to blame for everything that went wrong in our lives - parents, partners, husbands/wives, teachers, employers, maybe a reckless driver or even God or our ancestors, who had perhaps given us poor genes and a disability or two, or made us grow up in miserable circumstances - Life is like a dance, people do step on the toes of others and sometimes not on purpose. So, blaming is a waste of precious energy. Life is a mountain to be climbed to the very top - only death should stop us to climb... move forward... upwards.... Have a good day!
Martie Coetser Pozyn You are welcome to read my article about Racism -http://martiecoetser.hubpages.com/.../Racism-Another...
Racism – Another Perspective on Racism - Racism is a form of emotional fortification, dug like moats by people who live in fear of losing what they believe are theirs...
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: After all, we don't necessarily need to elect a new government in order to free ourselves, we only need to educate everyone who's willing to listen, and to dictatorially indoctrinate our own children and family members at gatherings. Remember, changing the world and the future begins from within. And for us Africans (black & white) to prosper and elevate to the level of China and the West, all we need to is to understand that we have been deprived of many advantages. e,g technological, scientific and (shamefully) intellectual. But yet we are the sole providers of natural resources upon which these global superpowers depend, therefore all we need to do is to set up magnificent regulations for international trade of these precious minerals. Imagine if we block the trade of brent crude and platinum. This will cause an enormous collapse of the Dow Jones, Nikkei, Mercedes-Benz and all foreign investment cartels and automobile manufacturers. It will eventually force them to comply with our domestically determined prices for commodities. But on the flipside, it will always come at a price, i.e sanctions, which will result in economic recession, hunger and even military intervention, but yet again, every revolution demands sacrifices. Believe me, they have been lying to us, saying they have platinum reserves that can sustain them for the next 25 years at their warehouses in London. Blue lies! If we don't excel in producing, why can't we excel in selling what is ours to our own collective benefit. 1000 apologies for having expressed my views in an aggressive manner, l hope l did not offend anyone. Have a good day.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: @Malusi - I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. You have given me hope for the future of SA. Thank you! Oh yes, at fist you scared me, displaying so much anger, but I could see your point and agreed all the way with everything you've said. Have a nice day!
Dave Andrews: Hi Malusi. Words like "indoctrinate" and "Dictatorial" are normally associated with oppressive regimes and I would not recommend using either in the family context. I do agree that the development of children should begin at home and every opportunity should be taken to provide them with the building blocks required for open mindedness and fair play. I would also not use China as an example to aspire to. China has an unfair advantage right now due to the fact that conditions of employment are largely unregulated. American companies like Dell and Apple are taking advantage of this and are guilty of abusive labour practises which would not be tolerated in their home country (or South Africa, or any Western country). China will have to toe the line eventually and that will level the playing field. In the interim, with our relatively high wages and highly regulated labour market - we cannot hope to compete. I don't think we are deprived of any technological, scientific or intellect advantages. More likely, we are not investing sufficiently in our academic institutions and our failing education system. Educate people and they will do the rest. Regulating trade will never work. We are not 'sole providers' of any natural resource. We do not have oil reserves, how can we block the trade of Brent Crude? A collapse of the world financial markets is not going to help anyone - least of all us. The world market has and always will determine the value of commodities - as with any willing buyer , willing seller transaction - prices find their level according to the principles of supply and demand. We should look to ourselves to find our problems and solve them from within.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Dave, thanks for emphasizing reality. Ref China - the best producers of musical instruments in Europe, Conn and Selmer, established a division in China. Due to savings on labour - as labour is so much cheaper in China as in Europe - they are able to sell their product, called Conn-Selmer - for half the price to the rest of the world. Excellent student models! But is this really abuse? Considering the population of China an their unemployment, is this not a case of one hand helps the other? Thinking about platinum and gold and even diamonds, can South Africa really afford to rise its selling price on the International market? We may have a lot of minerals, but we are not the only country in the world able to meet International demand. Look what had happened to our textile, clothes and shoes factories. Most went insolvent due to cheaper International suppliers. The government is trying to 'save' us by increasing taxes on imports, forcing minimum wages down our throats, believing that this is the right way to go, and in the meantime we are no longer a country able to supply all the demands of our citizens, but part of a global world - country serving other countries.... We should rather fear the monopoly of oil producing countries and develop sufficient energy and fuel supply instead of supplying platinum and gold.... Anyway, this is but only my humble thoughts. After all, I am only an observer and not a professional economist.... Thanks again for reminding us about serious issues to keep in mind...
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: But still the WTO regulates commodity pricing, although in disguise, must buyers determine a price, or must they negotiate it? As for oil, maybe l didn't make myself clear,my plea is actually for the rest of the continent, as we all fall victims to our common enemy. As for those words you consider undesirable, l can only say they are applicable to a certain category of people, my own black people who have been fed with the distorted image of false freedom, which resulted in the breeding of a lazy generation whose sole interest is to make babies, queue for social grants, demand free housing and toilets, watch soapies, boast about drinking dated alcohol, allow underage kids to have sex freely, and to vote illiterates into power simply because they received a free T-shirt. Don't be confused by myself sounding a bit two-faced. These are the people upon whom ideas must be forced into their minds by indoctrination. Without application of force my people hardly manage to get off their feet. They rather sit and gossip than water their own gardens, and still l blame your ancestors, they taught blacks to work only under foremanship, and convinced them they'll never achieve anything by themselves, my people are the ones whose kids are being taught at school to disobey parental orders, all in the name of human rights. But Dave believe me, collapsing international market is the simplest method that yields a win-win situation, it has been used by most successful economies to topple unfavourable regimes. If exercised on a larger or continental scale, Africa shall sing Hosannas.
Martie Coetser Pozyn: Amen, Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele..... And even applicable to whites.... in the past they were too sure of getting a job, pension, medical benefits, etc. Now the lazy are doomed.... but also the white hardworking and devoted student, no longer able to slide into prosperity, is compelled to surpass themselves.... Africa, and in particular South Africa, shall indeed sing Hosannas....
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: I truly enjoyed this conversation and yes l learned a lot. I almost felt like writing a whole volume on this topic. Goodnight fellows.
Malusi Mphahlele Mphahlele: I truly enjoyed this conversation and yes l learned a lot. I almost felt like writing a whole volume on this topic. Good evening fellows. Keep up the teaching and touching lives
Mpho Makhubedu: This discussion showed me that as much as it is about Race its even More about Class....I am really agreeing with the Solution all over you came up with, But I honestly don't think its the solution.. no disrespect to Anyone but I don't think is thinking out side the Box it basically conforming to the System fighting for a better spot in the system with at the end of the day the green eyed Monster that is Capitalism still exists and as long it still exists there will never be Equality.. we need a whole new System...everything has changed in the last 100 years why can't the System Change...with innovation we own need crude oil anything associated with things such as trade, economy, currency, its time the human race elevated from that kind of thinking...if I was a leader trust and believe South Africa would be a Rogue Nation with all the things I just Mentioned non existent...imagine if there was no money to hinder progress how far innovation wise the human race would be...take pharmaceutical companies for instant.. how can you find a cure when Cancer alone is Worth billions of Dollars a year.. the is no money in the cure and as we know money is fuel of capitalism, socialism or any other ism we can think off.. Animals are dying of for what to fuel the System, I mean people we a paying for water have you ever seat down and think of how funny and stupid is?if you paying for water today what will you be paying tomorrow.. as governments get stronger and stronger so will Capitalism.. we need to kill the monster today so for me any solution that is within the System is a short term Solution that will soon have to be eradicated as well.
Mpho Makhubedu: We need to free our minds and believe in the unbelievable.. the fight for the future starts here.. after all today's reality doesn't have to be tomorrow's for reality is is what you make of it,
Martie Coetser Pozyn: @Mpho Makhubedu, I don't think capitalism is the true devil, but human Greed and Envy. You'll have to invent a brand-new system to meet the needs of people in this day and age as all previous systems have proved themselves to be failures in relation with human natural desires. Now exactly what do you have in mind?
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